This is Pod News Extra. Full-length interviews and other stuff. This podcast is sponsored by Buzzsprout. Podcast hosting made easy. Welcome back to Pod News. I'm joined by Naima Raza. She is the executive producer at Vox Media and produces the wonderful On with Kara Swishin. Naima, how are you? I'm well, thank you. How are you, Sam? Great to see you. It's so nice to hear you in my headphones. I normally have them on every week. Mondays and Thursdays. There we are. Yes. Now, for those of you who don't know, let me just step back one second. You are the producer of On with Kara Swishin. Let's start off with, how did you get that gig? I mean, that's a pretty big gig. It's a massive podcast. So where did that come about? No one else wanted it, Sam. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. No, I, Karen and I met... Truth hurts. The truth hurts. No, that's not true. Many people want the gig. People are trying to take me out all the time. Kidding. So Kara and I met in 2019 when I was a video journalist at the Times. I was doing opinion video and I was actually field producing some interview segments for a colleague of mine who was in London, but doing a story about online privacy where the subjects were largely in New York. And Kara Swisher was one of those subjects. And she came in and I remember I wrote to her get her to come into the office and told her, just as you do in video, don't wear any crazy patterns. Just wear something simple, no crazy patterns. Let me know if you're going to be wearing glasses, et cetera, et cetera. And she sent me back a Seinfeld gift. So just like a jiffy of Seinfeld in a white ruffle shirt. And I'm like, okay, this is going to be fun. And when she showed up, she wanted to wear the sunglasses, but we weren't lit for that. We didn't have enough time. And for the cinematographer, I was like, I need to take off the glasses. And she's like, I'm not going to take off my glasses. And I'm like, you got to take off the glasses or we can't do the interview. And she took off the glasses and she gave a great interview. And we knew each other a little bit after that and stayed a little in touch. But when she moved her podcast, Recode, when she joined the Times to start Sway, she was already an opinion columnist at this time, at the Times. But when she started Sway, I said, I would love to get involved and help out with the show. Because I was still, at that point, it's very confusing. I had left the Times to go do a TV series for CBS that I was show running and executive producing with Richard Linklater and Bill Gutentuck, my partners in that. But I was still contributing because it was during COVID. And it was very important. So I was still a contributor to the Times. And I said, I'd love to help you kick off the show. And so I got involved, first of all, just helping conceive and book the show a little bit, and then went on to take on the showrunner gig there as senior editor. And we've been working together, Cara and I now, for a few years on podcasts. So yeah. So look, Cara is well known, as we all know, across the tech industry. She's slightly fearsome. She scared the hell out of me one day. Dummy. Well, back in 2019, I had the crazy idea pre-COVID or during COVID to do an online conference. Never done one before. So that'll be fine. And let's see who I can invite. Oh, let's go and get one of the biggest names in podcasting and see if she'll say yes. Much to my pleasure and fear, she did say yes. And I sat there in a cold sweat going, did Cara Swisher just say yes, she'll do this? She did. Right. So she's a yes person. She loves it. Good. Well, then I decided I'd better make sure I researched her thoroughly. Get this right, Sammy. Opening segment, loads of time. I thought I'm good. Right. So I've gone to her website. I've read out this monologue about Cara Swisher, thinking, right, and then I'm going to go straight into my first question. And Cara just simply went, well, that's all wrong then, isn't it? I went, oh my God. And I was trying to backtrack very fast and was trying to not say, well, which part's wrong. Anyway, let's just move on, Cara. That's the right thing to do. Good. Well produced. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Are you still scarred by that experience? Well, the therapy has taken four years and yeah, we're getting there. Send Cara the bills. I'm serious. Send her the bills for that. At the end of the day, I think what it is, at the end she comes across as this very fearsome thing, which is why I was interested in how do you approach it with her? What's the dynamic of your relationship when you produce an episode and a series of episodes? Is it you coming up with the guests? Is it you coming up with the themes? Is it Cara? How's the dynamic between the pair of you? Yeah. So I should step back and say that we're part of a broader ecosystem. There's definitely a bigger team in place. And so we have really great producers that work with myself and Cara, Blake Nishik, Christian Castro-Russell, and Raphaela Seward, as well as a great team of engineers and other people who contribute to the show. Cara and I, and that's really important now because in this new structure, I'm also on the air a bit, right? So I co-host the kind of intro and outro segments of the show. And so those producers are critical in what we make. But Cara and my dynamic, both of us love editorial tension and we're used to that from newsrooms and we like that creative energy of putting up ideas and saying, no, that's terrible. Here's another idea. And so we debate a lot and we also kind of share. So sometimes she'll have an idea and she'll say she really wants to do something and I'll be like, oh, that sounds exciting. And sometimes I'll be like, I don't know why we would do that. That sounds like weird or not right for us. And same thing with me. I'll say something and she'll be like, yeah, sure. And sometimes she'll be like, no, I don't want to do that. It's terrible. And so that's the dynamic. It's like any, I always think of producer and talent dynamics as coach and player or, or just producer talent and film or anything else, which is that it's a unique world where as a producer, you will talent, your job is to make sure that the thing gets made, right? So the vision is executed, et cetera. So in a way you're telling the talent what you need them to do, what you want them to do at the same time, like your job is contingent on the talent wanting to continue to work with you, right? They're not your boss, but they are certainly influential in your continued success. And that's a good thing because it's really a creative partnership and collaboration. And I always work best in my career when I have really fantastic partners and Kara is certainly that she really is a fantastic partner. And for all that people say she's, Oh, she's to be feared. I think that she is actually really collaborative. She's quite open-minded and she's willing to listen. And I think she responds well to like, we share that we're both a little fearless. And so she responds well, like our energy works well because we will get to the right decision through tension. Cool. Now on where's it going to go? I mean, the UK has seen a real trend and I can't say I've seen it the same in America. Maybe I'm just not observing it, but a lot of the top podcasts are now taking their shows live. I mean, there seems to be some sort of desire to go and see these podcasters in real life. My dad wrote a porno. I think he went to see that one and the best is politics sold out the Albert Hall in two hours. I mean, crazy, right? See two old men sat on a stage talking about politics. And smart list. That's been huge. So I've only been to one of these, which is a friend invited me to. My dad wrote a porno and I hadn't actually listened to the show. So I went just to see what it's all about. And it was fantastic to see just the energy around that show, the fandom, people feeling like the interactive nature of the actual event as well. And I think it was Radio City Music Hall in New York. So huge location. There's nothing I'm going to announce on this show in terms of new live things. Sorry, Sam. Sorry. But I will say that I think Kara has been doing live. That was her origin, right? She and Walt Mossberg started with the All Things D conference and I think it was 2003 and that became the Code Conference. And then they came over to Vox. And I always tell Kara, I love watching Kara live. I think live interviews are a whole different ballgame because you're not sitting with all the prep in front of you. It's much more consolidated, compact. And I think she just responds to the crowd really well and she enjoys it in a way. And so we are doing a lot of live events coming up in terms of tapings that we're doing live. So we are going to be at, Kara's coming out to here. I'm taping in LA right now and Kara's coming out here for the Upfronts to the VC conference. And then we're going to South by Southwest in March. We'll be doing a bunch of live tapings coming up. So let's see. There's nothing I can announce here, but I love it from the audio texture as well because I love hearing the audience. So one of the other things, she just did pivot in London to a bunch of VCs. Yeah, I was there. Oh, were you there? Okay. Yeah, yeah. Were you there? Yeah, yeah. No, a friend of mine who was one of the organizers couldn't go somewhere else, but I was gutted. Again, one of the things is I want to just step back out of on and go back to you. 1891. Why is it called 1891? It's your film production company. You're not that old. I'm not that old. Imagine. I would be dining out and like doing interviews if I were the oldest woman on earth. I think that would check out. But 1891 is the year that Stanford was founded. And Stanford University is where I met my writing partner in film and TV, Bill Gutentag, who's a double Academy Award winning documentary filmmaker who has made films like Soundtrack of a Revolution, Nan King, Twin Towers, for which he won with Dick Wolf, the best documentary short. And so he was my professor at graduate school. I went from doing a lot of political reform work in foreign governments and foreign countries to going to grad school and doing this kind of joint degree between Stanford Business School and Kennedy School of Government, because I was interested in those things. And when I was at business school, I realized the business side isn't really speaking to me. But I took this one class in entertainment with Bill. And I thought, well, maybe that's what I could do, because it had similarities to politics in a way that was very personality driven. It's storytelling. It's a lot of what you're doing. And when you're doing economic development or political development work. And so yeah, Bill and I got on really well. And we started writing projects together and producing together. And so that's where the name comes from, 1891. And I still have that business. And though I've been mostly steeped in podcasting these days, I still do work in film and also in video and print. I write on occasion too. And I love that. I like all the formats. And I think each format serves a different purpose. And so for me, a really fun creative question is how best to tell this story, which format and what would it sound like in print and video and audio? Or what would it read like, look like and sound like? Just to add to it, you're an underachieving Asian at Harvard as well, just throughout that, Harvard and Stanford. Oh, I had to make my parents proud. I will say that after I graduated from both those programs, and I'm like, I'm going to become a documentary filmmaker. My parents were like, huh? They did not see that curveball coming. We began with the right word, doctor. No, it wasn't done. Exactly. No, I knew that wasn't coming. But I've been very lucky to have very supportive parents who let me figure out what I wanted to do. And that's why I think a career is a lifelong journey of that, right? Figuring out what it is you want to make, what story you want to tell, and how you want to do it on your terms. And that's another thing that Karen and I share in common too. She's difficult to put in a box. And I'd say I'm the same way. And we're both super entrepreneurial and want to try different things, try our hands at different things, and live a lot of life before we go. Because unfortunately, I wasn't born in 1891. I've got a long life ahead of me. Good. Now, clearly, Kara's a stepping stone to your future. What is... Well, I'm not going to accept the premise, but you can go ahead. So, what is next for you? I mean, your own podcast? Are you going to do more film? What comes next for you? Oh, right now, I'm so focused. I'm going to tell you the answer that everyone tells you when you ask this question. That's such a sad answer. But I'm very focused on this show. So, Kara and I have been making an interview podcast since 2020 together, right? And this new iteration at ON is different format-wise. We've been doing a lot of format experimentation. I'm a producer who's on the air with Kara. I don't have an ambition. I didn't get into this, like, having a vision for what the next step looks like. And I'm guilty of that through my career. I've seen doors open and then walked through the ones I liked a little bit. And so, right now, we're so early in. I want to keep growing the show. It's doing really well. And people seem to like it. We want to learn more. We'll probably do listener surveys soon because we're almost six months old. And I want to keep experimenting and getting the show really right. That's the near-term feature for me. And also continue to write and to do film work as well, to continue to do projects on the side and continue this kind of portfolio career that I've built for myself. We're hearing rumors in the industry of YouTube getting into podcasting. We're hearing much more of Spotify adding video, certainly for Joe Rogan. And Call Me Daddy have certainly gone to video. And we're seeing a lot more video in short form, like TikTok. Would ON become a video podcast, do you think? There's been interest in that. I know we've had people reach out and express interest in video for particularly the inter-segments, which Kara and I do together. I think the question for me is, why is it a video? This is where I probably think differently to some podcasters. I had someone who came from film and from video journalism to say, well, why is it a video? What's interesting? What's visually interesting about the video? And one reason it's a video is because I think people want to know what people look like and they want to imagine what your reaction is, how you look, where are you laughing? A lot could be reading a transcript of a podcast would not be the same thing as listening to it. And watching it would be yet another dimension. So yeah, for me, if it were, what would it look like? And what purpose would it serve? And how long would it look? I think those are all questions I'd have to grapple with to consider what that is. Okay. Yeah. Adam Curry, the guy who invented podcasting, had never seen me, but he'd heard me every week and then we met and he had a shock. He expected a blonde, blue eyed Englishman and a short Indian. And he was like, that is not what I expected of you. But isn't that beautiful? Because that's one of the reasons I love to read fiction, right? I love to read it because you're making your own film in your own head as you're reading it. So there's a co-creation process with you and the author. And so I think it's really exciting to see the business of podcasting grow and recognize. I think it's super intimate medium because you are in people's ears, right? You're invading their ears and you're living in them. And it's such a beautiful form in itself that I think there's no wonder that everybody wants to get in on a great business and make video out of a great business. And I think that's fantastic and hopefully helps the format grow. But I think the question is, is video going to be something that's appealing for a subset of your super fan already? Is it going to be something that brings in new people who would discover you because it's a different medium? Or is it going to be something that really can live on its own as a standalone asset that, you know, is for its own right in video, like beautiful and something to look at and watch and enjoy? And obviously like the format has been proven, like look at Joe Rogan. People watch two, three hours of Joe talking to somebody in a format that most filmmakers or the Academy would certainly think is like not that visually exciting, but people love it. Look at the views. So, yeah. So, okay. Now you have one wish, which is you can have any guest on to on. Who would you have? Any guest on to on. Are you going to make it happen, Sam? Well, I know a lot of people. I might make it happen. I doubt it very much, but I try. I'd love to have Taylor Swift on. That's a wish of Walt Mossberg too. But I think she's made such an impact. Just look at this new thing with Ticketmaster, right? Look at way the most people. So for me, she's huge in her own right, and she's had an amazing career. And I want to understand how she's gone about that and built her own brand and controlled it and done things her way, her own terms, which I appreciate, including re-recording all of her own albums, which is amazing to want to own the underlying IP, including back in 2014, I think, or 2016, when she was going back and forth with Spotify and Apple Music about what shares musicians should get from their own context. I want to talk to her about that. I would also love to hear her speak about the outsized influence she's had an unintentionally almost in areas like Ticketmaster and bringing up these conversations of what are the antitrust issues about the events business and the tickets business? And how does that look? So she would be fantastic. Cara's would probably be Dolly Parton. Oh, Dolly. Dolly I would have every day. Yeah. Yeah. Cara loves Dolly and has spent time at Dolly Land. That is just mad. And then I'd love to have Elon Musk on right now. I don't think he'd come, but I'd like to actually... I believe Cara knows him fairly well. She does. And we did a great episode, if I may say so myself, about that, where I interviewed Cara about her long history reporting on and interviewing Elon and where things are now. And it's called Elon Musk, Somebody I Used to Know. She chose that title. I thought it was a good title. But yeah, I think he would be interesting right now. Yeah. I don't know. So many guests. We have a lot of shows. I'd like to have Rishi Sunak on. He's the Prime Minister of the UK. Yeah. He's an interesting character. Yeah. He's quietly actually getting on with the job, which I think is quite nice. Yeah. He is. And he's an alum of my business school. And I think he's up against a lot, let's say. He's up against a lot. And it'll be interesting to see how he does. I don't think he can stay as Prime Minister in two years. I think people before him have set him up for a fall. But the Tories can't stay, right? Yeah. It's not even about him. It's not personal. It's about the party, right? In that case. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So look, On. I love it. Where can people find it? Where's the best place to go and get On? Oh, you get it wherever you get your podcasts. You're not exclusive. We're not exclusive. No. Oh, come on. We have more fun than that. You can go to Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, Google Class, wherever you get your podcasts. And yeah, we'd love you to listen and tell us what you think in the reviews. No, Mirazza. Thank you so much for your time. There's more where that came from at podnews.net, a free daily newsletter, jobs, events, and more. And we're sponsored by Buzzsprout, podcast hosting made easy.