Sam Sethi: 0:12

I'm joined by Ami Thakkar. Right. Good. I'm so glad because I can edit this better. She's the wonderful host of Talk It Out. Now you've done over 110 episodes. Amy, how are you?

Ami Thakkar: 0:25

I am excellent. How are you, Sam?

Sam Sethi: 0:28

Good. Good. Now, first of all, tell me a little bit about your podcast. Why did you start it and what is it?

Ami Thakkar: 0:34

So I'll start with the why. I am technically a lawyer, an attorney. Rewinding back a little bit, I graduated from undergrad with a business degree. Thought I was going to go into business. Or Enron, which was my first job. Enron obviously didn't work out. Then ended up living in India for a year, doing all sorts of creative stuff because I've always had this creative side. I just never knew what to do with it. I ended up going to law school because I'm a good Indian girl and practiced law in New York for a while, met my husband, and since we've been married, which is almost God, almost 13 years now. We moved eight times. Seven times. I can't. I'm losing count because of his job. So we've moved abroad. We were in India, in Dubai, Dallas, Arkansas, Connecticut. And now we're back in Dallas. And each time I was trying to pick up the pieces of my career again, trying to find new jobs, new projects, because I just never been the type that could sit at home.

Sam Sethi: 1:36

Must love it when he comes in and goes, Honey, we're moving again.

Ami Thakkar: 1:39

Oh, yes. We've had many those many fine moments over the years. And when he is like a new role, but it's fantastic. He's with one company and enjoying it and the moves are worth it. There's a lot of work, but totally worth it. And it's been quite an adventure. But that being said, it's definitely hard as the spouse that's following the partner that's working to figure out what they want to do. So throughout these moves I'm searching for my purpose. If you want to say trying to work at startups and writing for magazines and you name it, I have done it all, worked in radio and so when we got back from living abroad, I had just had my first daughter. I was pregnant with my second daughter. I was completely frustrated with my career stuff and I thought, You know what? I am tired of looking for something, figuring out what my passions are because I have so many. And I couldn't just do the stay at home mom thing. It just wasn't me. And so Cereal had just kind of come out. It was a big deal in the U.S., I think, around the world. Yeah. And and so I was like, you know what? I love the concept of podcasting. I didn't know much about it, but I knew one. I love interviewing people. I had done it through the magazines. I worked with, and I loved the audio medium because I had worked in various radio stations two and two together. Serial was a huge inspiration, and then bam, I was like, Let me just start. Found a guy that could help me with the tech stuff because I know nothing about tech still to this day. And I took the route of interviewing South Asian trailblazers and experts and leaders first in the U.S.. I started off just with the U.S. and then expanded simply because, look, I am Indian-American.

Sam Sethi: 3:26

I am interested clarity, not Native Indian American.

Ami Thakkar: 3:29

That's native Indian-American, No. Yes, Indian-American parents are from India. And I was curious about other Indian-American stories, how they got to where they got in their careers. Were they confused like I was ever Were they the typical doctor, lawyers, engineers that our parents wanted us to be? And then the second part of that was I had a strong network, so it was easy to get guest because I could just call up my friends who were doing big things. So that's why I started off the interviews with South Asian Trailblazers, and the name comes from my last name, Tucker. I've been called Tucker my whole life, and I was tuckered out from figuring out my jobs, moving around, being a mom. And yeah, I just thought it was a fun name. And this was I. My first episode came out December 2017 and kind of started off as a hobby. I think like a lot of podcasters.

Sam Sethi: 4:27

Yeah, most of us are. As I said at the beginning, I've done 107 episodes, So looking back at the first episode you started What's Change? What have you learned from that?

Ami Thakkar: 4:36

You know, honestly, Sam, I was just telling my husband a few things. One, I feel like this podcast has become my own therapy session because when you are talking to others about the South Asian story, you end up of course, talking about your relationship with your culture, relationship with our parents, your own journey. And I feel like throughout these past two and a half years, I've just learned a lot about myself and how my stories from childhood that I haven't thought about for years. I've also learned that we all have a common thread. A lot of us have common thread. Even if you live in the US or live in the UK or Australia or Singapore. The South Asian story is we have a lot in common no matter where you are, but it's also very unique depending on where your family immigrated to. And so it's just been fascinating to learn about other people. But I think not to sound cheesy, but really learning more about myself. Oh gosh, so many. I had mentioned that Serial was an inspiration to start the podcast, and on my 75th episode I got to interview Rabia Chaudry, who was the attorney and family friend of Adnan that kind of helped launch the whole podcast. And so talking to her was just a full circle kind of moment. She's just a very interesting, intelligent woman. She's done such great work. Also, I had interviewed Kal Penn, my 90th episode, I believe, and I had worked with Kal 20 some years ago as his production assistant on a film set back in Austin when I was living there and hadn't spoken to him since I ran into him at an event in Connecticut, I was like, We got to do this. And it was really cool to talk 20 years later about everything, and he's Gujarati and we on the film sets, we would just bust out with Gujarat. And so we decided it was really nice to connect with him again after all these years. Gosh, so somebody I'm trying to think also. Yeah. The CEO of Luminary Rishi Malhotra was a great guest.

Sam Sethi: 6:47

Yeah. And he's on your wish list.

Ami Thakkar: 6:51

Well, your prime minister would be nice.

Sam Sethi: 6:54

Oh, I.

Ami Thakkar: 6:55

Would.

Sam Sethi: 6:56

Rishi, don't worry about the country, Hari. Yeah, he wants to. India.

Ami Thakkar: 7:00

Don't you have time for me? I don't understand.

Sam Sethi: 7:03

But when you come over, I'll take you to number ten. We'll sort it out.

Ami Thakkar: 7:06

Yeah, He would be amazing. Lilly Singh, I think she's done a lot for Indian women in the US, and so it would be just fun to talk to her. I think we would have a blast.

Sam Sethi: 7:17

Yeah. You know, they're great names. Now, in terms of monetizing your podcast, how are you doing it?

Ami Thakkar: 7:23

Sponsorship. So, you know, it's not consistent. I sometimes get sponsors six weeks in a row, eight weeks in a row, or for certain episodes. It just depends. And then sometimes I don't. And so I think every independent podcaster knows it's a struggle unless you are a celebrity or a well-known figure getting a contract with a big network, getting that constant sponsorship support is hard. And so yeah, there's a lot of platforms you can work with that help you monetize or help you connect with sponsors. Some months are great, some not, but it is what it is. I'm doing it for the passion of it.

Sam Sethi: 8:01

So yeah, that's what independents tend to do. Yeah. Now you've started doing real world events. She did the South Asian house at South by Southwest. You're doing other events, tours, more.

Ami Thakkar: 8:12

Yeah. So, you know, when I was my last it before Dallas where I am now, we were in Connecticut and so access to New York was easy. So I was going to a lot of events there. And a friend of mine who was also a guest, Meghan as a she throws and host a party every year called the Valley on the Hudson, which is huge. The Volley Party in New York. It's a fantastic cause for the this foundation. And so I was like, you know what would be really cool? They have red carpet stuff and what But I asked her, what about doing a live podcast or another kind of activation corner or something different from the red carpet? Not everyone loves red carpet where I can interview not just big names, but your guest to talk about the event, the foundation. It could be an episode obviously for my podcast, but you can also use that for your marketing tools as well to promote the Valley on the Hudson. And it ended up being a huge hit. And from there I was like, I should be doing more of this. It was just fun to interact because again, as you know, as a podcaster and independent podcaster, it's very lonely. It's fun to talk to everyone over squad cast or Zoom or whatever. But the interaction is not there. And so I feel like maybe you're this way too. I feed off the energy of people and in person. It's just a whole different level. And so yeah, I started kind of doing small events around New York. Then Sundance came up. I knew the people that were putting it together. I was like, Hey, look, let's do this. Like, let's do something different. This is the first South Asian house. Let's do an activation corner that worked well. And then South by Southwest happened and I'm doing a few more this year.

Sam Sethi: 9:53

Okay. Any plans to come to Europe?

Ami Thakkar: 9:56

Let's go. No question. I am ready to go. I would have loved to come for this year for the conference. I know you and I spoke in March, so yeah. You mentioned last week you met with Saul Suarez. Is that was that on her podcast? Yeah. And Brown Girls can do it. So I know a lot of stuff is happening in the UK and I would love to get plugged in because podcasting, like we talked earlier, is not just a U.S. thing. Now it's global.

Sam Sethi: 10:21

Okay, we're going to do a London South Asian house, a real event.

Ami Thakkar: 10:26

Like I am in. I'm ready to help. Let's make this happen.

Sam Sethi: 10:29

Help you?

Ami Thakkar: 10:30

Yes. Yeah, we've got to do it.

Sam Sethi: 10:32

Sorry. People can't see this, but you're the more attractive one who would be hosting it. Let's be clear. No one's coming to see me Look.

Ami Thakkar: 10:39

Right. I'll take it. It's my birthday today, so I'm just going to take all the compliments and smile.

Sam Sethi: 10:43

You take them. Now, one of the other things you've been doing is working on the Podcast Academy now. Congratulations. You got voted back in. Yes, Well done. What is the podcast Academy? Let's start with that. First of all, what do you think it is?

Ami Thakkar: 10:59

So let me I'm going to give you the best definition that I think explains it all. It is the only professional, full membership organization that unites podcast creators with industry leaders. Think of it as podcast movement. All year round, where everyone from the industry comes together, is able to network. You know, independent creators like me can meet big network heads besides the networking, the educational portion of it, the programming part of it. And so I like to think if you want to do like a little similarity podcast movement online all year, of course we're starting to have more live events through the Academy. Tons of stuff happening this year. It's all about inclusivity and we are really cognizant of having diverse leadership, not just with independents and industry leaders, but with female male, all backgrounds. And I think the two pillars are to encourage creativity and award excellence. So uplifting the industry.

Sam Sethi: 12:10

Okay, Now one of my observations at the Vegas event where we had the Olympics was it was very American now. So I jokingly called it the American Podcast Awards really, because there was no European or British or Australian representation. Right. And that felt for something that was meant to be an industry overarching academy. It felt very myopic. It was like the World Series of baseball, right? The Americans have it. Yeah. No, the rest.

Ami Thakkar: 12:39

Of it is the World Series. I'm kidding. Yeah. Yeah.

Sam Sethi: 12:42

So that's what we were joking about. That would be one thing I'd love for the Academy this year to try and reach out to more international participants to come on board. If you were selling the academy, why would I join, you know, from based over here in Europe?

Ami Thakkar: 12:58

Yeah, no, it's a great question. And you're right, I think we are still somewhat new. This is only the second year doing the MBA. So I think it is US centric a little bit more just because it's an easier way to start as a new organization to figure out the kinks how to grow this bigger. And of course, we want it to be international and of course we want to include everyone globally. Now that being said, we do have two members of the board that are based outside the U.S., one in London, I believe her name is Christina moore. Check me on that. And then Jfrog. The CI is based in Dubai and we are actually partnering with Sonora to go to Mexico City in June to talk about more of the global landscape and meet more global creators and industry leaders. So it's getting there. I just think honestly, the simple answer is it was the easiest way to start, I think, because we are so new and now that we are understanding what we're capable of and the interest globally now it is definitely 100%. But what we want to focus on as well.

Sam Sethi: 14:06

Okay. Now Rob Greenly does a weekly podcast with Todd Cochrane. And they were talking about an outreach program really of education. I was like, Really? So again, tell me more about some of the other activities apart from the Olympics, which is very glamorous and it's a once a year of right throughout the rest of the year. What does the Academy focus on?

Ami Thakkar: 14:28

So we have this great mentor mentorship program where we ask mentors to sign up, and if you want a mentor, we pair you up with someone who was a professional who has been doing this for a while, someone that we think would be a good match for you. I've done it. I've done it. I've done it as a mentor and a mentee. I was matched up with Louie, who was one of the heads of Wondery, and I got to talk to Marshall Lewy once a month for like six months, just me and him as a little independent podcaster.

Sam Sethi: 15:02

So I can talk to Jen Sargeant now.

Ami Thakkar: 15:04

Yeah, she's on the board, by the way.

Sam Sethi: 15:05

No, exactly. That's what.

Ami Thakkar: 15:07

I'm saying. Yeah. So I mean, like the access to the people who, you know, are frankly hard to get hold of because they are busy, they are running things. And so the mentor program I think is fantastic and very unique. And we have so many amazing names on there ready to help and give back. We also have masterclasses which will be now called TPA Presents, where we have masters in various areas of the industry speaking to our members about different aspects, whether it's marketing, audience growth, whatever it is, we have it all, every category is covered. And also, again, it's easy to reach out to these people and ask the questions and connect. So a lot of this is just being able to connect and talk to people that may be not easy to get hold of and get the advice. And I do think the peer to peer connection is super important as well. We already talked about how in lonely podcasting can be, I join the TPA just to like meet other podcast people. I didn't expect anything out of it, but just to like talk to other people that are. I'm like, What the hell are we doing? What's happening here? So for me, I initially started it off just to make friends and feel like I had an office of some sort. I didn't expect to talk to Marshall Louie and like get all this great advice. It was an amazing, amazing thing that happened. And I was like, Wow, TPA is really legit. We are also going to be coming out in August, going to have our own podcast where podcast industry people will be interviewing other podcast, interesting people and you can sign up to be on it. It helps with your own marketing and you get to meet others. And so we want podcasters to have that access. So we're starting on new programs as well. Obviously the ambos are there, other great, but we're thinking about other exciting things. The other thing to remember is that we are partnering with a lot of other platforms like the Black Pod Collective, Bipoc podcast creator, Air State of Women. So we're working with everyone because we want to be team players.

Sam Sethi: 17:11

Yeah, What was interesting as an observation for me at the Emmys was these amazing creators and producers were winning awards, and yet in my podcast world, not one of those people existed. Okay, because it's a very interesting separation between the two parties. I deal in a world where we're looking at people. Adam Curry in the podcasting to the world and technologies and what's moving the process needle forward. So micropayments and new ways of monetizing your podcast. And then on this other side, you've got these amazing production companies building and spending. I wonder whether the Emmys would have space for extending the awards. This just may, maybe some feedback to some of the platform players. There's a great platform called Fountain, which is innovative, right? Right. There's some great hosts out there doing amazing work, and there's no recognition for them by the podcast Academy. Right. And it felt like it was like if you've produced this amazing podcast that has a big high end budget and yes, I know independents were covered as well, then we will celebrate, right? But the people that they rely on are the nuts and bolts people who build the railways and give you the pickaxes and whatever so you can go and dig the gold. But these guys are building those railways and selling you the pickaxes. Right. But they're not getting any notes.

Ami Thakkar: 18:38

Sure. I'm glad you that I mean, I think that's true. So I think a few things with that. I think that's why on the board of governors, that's why there's so many of us that are coming from different angles, aspects, places, roles to talk about these kind of things, because it can't just be all industry leaders on the board. So that's why they brought in someone like me who's an independent, who has literally just learned about the podcast industry in the past 20 months. And I also do think again, the ambiance we just finished our second year, it is new and so I think we're always looking to see how to get better, how to be more inclusive, what we need to do to change. So I do think the feedback is definitely something we need to hear and what we're talking about, like what we can do better next year, who can we include? How do these independent platforms feel? What are we missing? I think it's ever evolving still as a new organization. And so, yeah, I agree we need to make it happen. So I think that's why I love our board is because it is so diverse. And I will tell you, Sam, when I was voted on last year, I was nervous. I was like, No one's going to listen to me. Like, who am I? I felt empowered. It feels like everyone's on the same level playing field. It's really nice.

Sam Sethi: 19:55

Yeah. Again, but I know there's a lot of work being done around education as well. City University here in the UK have started an M.A. in podcasting, which I think is great. Is there again any thread or theme within the podcast academy to do more grassroots education work?

Ami Thakkar: 20:14

Yeah, I think so. I think for now we are definitely kind of filtering and understanding what we have done so far to make sure that is working before we start expanding it more. Right? And so in terms of grassroots is definitely on the agenda. I don't know. There's been nothing specific talked about yet, so I think, sure, why not? Right. We're not this old organization that's stuck in our ways. I think we're an organization that's still ever evolving. That's why it's really cool to be part of it right now. We can actually make a change and that we can actually form ideas that maybe we missed or maybe that are needed, like podcasting. Still, the wild, Wild West still is ever evolving. And so I think we are too. We're always willing to grow. I don't think there's ever like a, Oh God, no. It's always like, okay, let's see how we can make this work cool.

Sam Sethi: 21:10

So if I wanted to join, where would I go?

Ami Thakkar: 21:12

The podcast Academy dot com I believe that's a no. It's okay.

Sam Sethi: 21:16

I'm just checking.

Ami Thakkar: 21:17

I'm pretty sure that's it. Yeah. So membership, you can sign up there. Look, Sam, there is always like discounts on membership, so make sure you look out for that. I think it's 100 a year, but we always have some sort of deal or discount. Cool. Yeah.

Sam Sethi: 21:33

And if have me moments ago and listen to your podcast, whenever they go.

Ami Thakkar: 21:37

Anywhere, they listen to podcast. The website is tuckered out with Omnicom, obviously on all the major platforms. I do have a newsletter on Substack. I mean, Tucker got Substack dot com and then my Instagram is at Tuckered Out podcast.

Sam Sethi: 21:53

And you and I are going to be doing a South Asian podcast event in.

Ami Thakkar: 21:58

I am so, so ready like sometime soon. So I'm doing one in DC in June for the impact group. So we're focusing on South Asians and politics in the US and I have some big names on that one and so we can totally make it happen in London.

Sam Sethi: 22:16

Cool. And last thing, given everything you're doing with podcasting and is quite an umbrella thing, taking the first question you asked was you, you wanted to find a way to make sure that you enabled yourself to have that creative outlet. Do you think you've achieved it?

Ami Thakkar: 22:34

I think not only have I achieved it, I think I, I have figured out that what I am doing with podcasting as who I am, communication is like my key is my golden key. It's been something I've always loved doing and I know a lot of people say this, but I am a people person. I'm always interested in people stories. I find everyone's fascinating and.

Sam Sethi: 23:03

Yeah, everyone has a.

Ami Thakkar: 23:04

Story. One has a story. I don't care how many followers you have on whatever social media platform. Some of my best interviews are people that are not known, and that's kind of those are my favorite moments. I honestly.

Sam Sethi: 23:16

Yeah, I interviewed Jordan Harbinger and he said exactly the same. Some of his favorite interviews are stories of people that you wouldn't have heard totally.

Ami Thakkar: 23:24

They wouldn't have heard of it. Yeah, of course it's fun to interview the bigger name people, but I think another theme of mine growing up in in America, I've always kind of felt like an underdog here. I think a lot of South Asians do growing up here, but well, my generation at least. So for me, the underdog story is so appealing. And I love underdogs and I love sharing their stories. That's, I think, another reason why I started it. I think it's a very powerful story to tell. And I want to tell stories of South Asian women and men that people need to hear that are so important, but they don't have the spotlight.

Sam Sethi: 24:03

Those question because YouTube today have announced that they put the podcast into the YouTube music app and they have pushed it out widely and blah, blah, blah. And so now, although it's not technically a podcast because it has no RSS feed, so no YouTube yet, but other than that and then stealing the name podcast, it fundamentally is a video. Will you move into that medium?

Ami Thakkar: 24:26

Just not right now.

Sam Sethi: 24:27

That was a very quick answer. That means you've thought.

Ami Thakkar: 24:29

About it actually for a while. I think the other thing I discovered about my podcast myself when I'm doing I'm going to do I'm going to make this podcast and do in a way that I'm comfortable with. I'm not going to do it just to get the numbers in the downloads and do what we're supposed to be doing. I don't know. It just doesn't feel right to me right now. I'm not saying it's not right. It's fantastic. Medium I know tons of people that are doing it. I do have a video aspect and I do post that in my own way through my channels. I also don't believe in posting on ten different social media channels. I feel like I want to focus on two or three max, build it from there. And yeah, I know I'm not even supposed to say that as an independent podcaster because you know you're supposed to go everywhere, but I just know I'm going to do this my way and less is more. Yeah, it's just, yeah, less is more. And the older I'm getting, which is not so old, but the older I'm getting, the more I'm just realizing I'm gonna do this the way I feel Good about that.

Sam Sethi: 25:30

Yeah. I mean, thank you so much. Lovely chatting to you. I hope to meet you in London very shortly. So let's make it happen.