Podnews Extra
Additional, long-form and ad-hoc podcasting content from Podnews and the Podnews Weekly Review. Expect speeches, interviews, and other pieces of content.
Podnews Extra
Jon Thoday, from Avalon Entertainment
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Jon Thoday, a prominent figure in entertainment management, shares insights about his company Avalon's early involvement in podcasting, dating back to the early 2000s. He reveals their work with notable talents like John Oliver, David Baddiel, and Frank Skinner, and discusses managing successful shows like "Shagged, Married, Annoyed" and "WTF with Marc Maron."
Thoday draws parallels between podcasting and stand-up comedy, noting how both mediums share a simple formula of talent and microphone with low barriers to entry. He emphasizes the importance of creative freedom in podcasting and expresses concerns about programmatic advertising potentially damaging the intimate relationship between podcasters and their audiences.
The conversation takes an interesting turn when discussing the evolution of podcasts into live shows, with Thoday sharing insights about how podcast success can now lead directly to arena-sized venues without needing traditional television fame first. He also offers a compelling perspective on video podcasting, suggesting that while it may help with monetization, the true innovation lies in the audio format itself, similar to how radio was a bigger breakthrough than filmed radio shows.
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We just have an agreement with Absolute that we can take the food with us and we do. So we just made that agreement with them. And obviously, anybody who knows anything about poker knows that very ideally you have your own feed and it follows you. And in general, I think it's best to have podcaster owned by the podcaster and get a podcast. If you want to be portable, you need to also you need the feed. So it's not really any more complicated than that. We produce podcasts and we also represent podcasts and we've been doing it. To be honest, since David Baddiel and Frank Skinner did a podcast for the World Cup in the early 2000s before people knew what reads were. So we've been doing it for quite a long time. And obviously The Bugle, which was John Oliver and Andy Zaltzman going all the way back then, which was originally funded by The Times
James Cridland:One of yours as well, was it?
Jon Thoday:Yeah? Yeah.
James Cridland:It. It turns out that I watch very little television, but all of my favorites. Taskmaster. Last week. Tonight, Russell Howard. It's all you say. It's.
Jon Thoday:Thank you.
James Cridland:So thank you for that.
Jon Thoday:It's really it's really John Oliver, Alex Horne and Russell Howard.
James Cridland:Yeah.
Jon Thoday:So, yes, thank you. We're lucky enough to work with some brilliant people.
James Cridland:So how important is podcasting for the kind of shows that Avalon has?
Jon Thoday:I wouldn't put it like that. Really? We we sort of came upon podcasts in the early 2000 when Keith Blackmore, who was then sports as the of the Times and he went on to be the deputy editor, called me up and said, We heard of this thing called the podcast, which to be frank, I hadn't heard of. And I think at that time, Ricky Gervais might have been dealing with The Guardian.
James Cridland:He was.
Jon Thoday:That's that was how we got involved with poker. So because we work closely with talent, we tend to get involved in all sorts of media. So if it's a medium or a TV show, we're often involved with it. I've, as I say, producing it or representing the artist if they want to do podcasting. Obviously podcasting for me has quite a big parallel with stand up comedy, because the thing about standup is essentially it's a comedian and a microphone that is not much different to a podcast.
James Cridland:It's interesting.
Jon Thoday:So it doesn't have the cost of making a TV show or film or theater play or anything like that. It's got a low barrier to entry, which is a great thing for podcasters.
James Cridland:Yeah. No, indeed. And I didn't realize you looked after Shagged, Married, Annoyed, which is a massive show.
Jon Thoday:Yeah. We produce. We produce.
James Cridland:Yeah. Yeah. A podcast going to be more important for Avalon going forward or is it you know, is it is it just, you know, one of the many things that Avalon that that Avalon to.
Jon Thoday:If while people that we work with want to do podcasts, they will be important and I'm hoping that the podcasts will continue to grow. So WTF with Marc Maron in the U.S.. We represent that. So we have we have quite a lot of global podcasts that we work with all produce. It's super simple. I mean, it. I've always been a fan of Radio four, and actually when podcast came along, it was finally there was an alternative.
James Cridland:Yeah, indeed.
Jon Thoday:I remember being I remember going to the U.S. saying to people, there's no real right here for the U.S. People say there's no market for it. And I. I always thought there was, I think, podcast to prove that there definitely is.
James Cridland:Yeah. Yeah. No, indeed. So. So what should what do you tell the people that you. You represent? I'm trying hard not to use the word talent because I've been told we're not allowed to use it anymore.
Jon Thoday:They are talent. I don't know. Why aren't lousy? Is it good talent?
James Cridland:Yes.
Jon Thoday:Who said you can't use it.
James Cridland:Tim Davie. You know what he's like.
Jon Thoday:Yeah, well, Tim Davie is wrong.
James Cridland:Well, they.
Jon Thoday:I mean, I don't know what you talking about. The idea that the BBC can change what people go. It's such rubbish.
James Cridland:What should Be aware of when they're signing a contract for a podcast. I mean, I'm sure that you would say get a great agent. But what else should they be aware of?
Jon Thoday:It depends on whose idea is is the answer to the question. If it's the person that has asked them to do this idea and they own the IP, I worry about certain things. And if it's like we manage Matt Forde, Who does the British scandal for Wondery it's a great podcast. Obviously it pre-existed and very successful in America, very successful here. And in that kind of situation, it's you're thinking more about just what's the phase and does the ask is what will it be good for? If the artists is thought of it all the talent, let's call them the talent, then it's a case of trying to make sure that you're on the best platform and you've got you continue to have creative control. one of the slight problems of the BBC getting involved at all costs because they have to comply, which is actually the whole point of a podcast, is it? The freedom of the creator,
James Cridland:Yes.
Jon Thoday:which is what is one of the things that's exciting about it, whether it be length, content, etc.. If you're if it's your idea and you own it, is to try and make sure you retain as much of it as possible to the extent that often the risk is taken by the broadcaster.
James Cridland:So lots of podcasts also obviously going in to video now. I was in L.A. last week. The launch of Spotify. You know, video stuff for podcasting.
Jon Thoday:Yeah, absolutely.
James Cridland:Yeah. What are your thoughts on podcasting and video?
Jon Thoday:Well, I think it's a way of increasing the monetization for people that are trying to monetize.
James Cridland:Yeah.
Jon Thoday:Personally, I think really podcasts are an audio product and unless you really like it when you watch a radio show being you, you know, there's cameras in the radio station. I'm less convinced it's something that I think the podcast itself is a bigger step forward than a video of a podcast in the same way that the radio show when radio was invented was a much bigger step forward than just filming a radio show, because I soon discovered that television requires other sorts of production values. But that's a personal view. There are reasons to do podcast on video. But I think with regard to Spotify, Spotify, we've got something right, which is that YouTube underpay that talent. The ad revenue CPM is too low, so if Spotify can make their streaming platform work. It's got a big advance for people on YouTube because it could be a case that they gravitate over to Spotify because Spotify is in a lot of homes. But I am less sure about Spotify for a podcast per se.
James Cridland:Yeah. Yeah. And I think the devil is in the detail and we don't necessarily know much of the detail quite yet in terms of that. I've just got two other questions. I'm just curious how podcasting looks from your world. Is it a tiny part of your world? And if it is, if it wants to grow? What's your advice to the industry?
Jon Thoday:Don't ruin it with programmatic ads. Is my advice to the industry.
James Cridland:How how do they ruin it?
Jon Thoday:Well, I think that I personally think that one of the great things about podcast is that the the read the original read, the baked in read which is like Marc Maron only does baked in reads in the US is very user friendly and I think podcasts become ultimately monetized like radio. You're just going to end up with more and more advertising in it, a lower and lower CPM. And I think that potentially damages the user experience. And I think that the reason the podcast works is a sort of relationship between the the person that listens to the podcast, that which is sort of different to radio. And I think the, you know, particularly in America, the amount of spots for advertising will inevitably go up and up and up. And the way the advertising sold is often a smooth operation by the platform, which isn't in the spirit of original podcasting. It was originally there monetized through reads to give an opportunity to create for creative talent, to kind of do the thing they like to do. And maybe people will like it or maybe they won't. And I think that's what's exciting about podcasts, is the underrated nature of it and how easy it is for a podcaster to do it. So not fail a lot succeed. And I think that's what's great about podcasting. I'm a huge fan of stand up comedy, the Edinburgh Festival. Podcasting, to some extent, writing novels, all of which are novels obviously have to find a publisher. But to some extent now people do can do on their own. They're all things which are pure creative items with relatively little curation. That is what can lead to the most exciting work.
James Cridland:One final question. You did the first arena comedy show with Newman. and Baddiel. Shagged married, annoyed have also done live shows.
Jon Thoday:Yes.
James Cridland:Well, how how important are live shows to the podcasting world? We're seeing more of them happen, particularly in the US. Are you organizing more of them for some of the talent that you work with?
Jon Thoday:We do lots of live stand up and now we do lots of live podcasts as well. And there is a kind of hybrid between the two. I think the answer is if you can do a good show with a podcast, it's a really good idea. But I think you need to think about what your live performance is to make sure that the user experience is good and people will come back the next time. So when Chris and Rosie get ready to do a live show, they put a lot of work into that.
James Cridland:Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.
Jon Thoday:There's the development phase that you need to go through, and it's certainly exciting that somebody could do a podcast, find the podcast, get successful, and then be able to play small, medium, big arena sized venues without having to have a hit television show first. I mean, just to say, we're massive fans of podcasting and I think it's a great new media and relatively new medium, particularly when the hands of people are on radio or so tied by all sorts of history, historical things, to be able to have the freedom of podcasting is something we should all cherish.
James Cridland:John, thank you. I appreciate it.
Jon Thoday:The pleasure.
