Sam Sethi: 0:12

Hello and welcome back to Pot News Weekly. I'm joined today by friends of the show. His name is Daniel Jay Lewis. He's an educator, advocate and innovator. He also is the builder, creator and founder of Pod Government. Daniel, hello, how are you?

Daniel J Lewis: 0:27

Sam is always great to talk with you.

Sam Sethi: 0:29

Now, Daniel, you have been working on publication for a couple of years now, or it feels like a couple of years. Let's step back. What is podcast? First, let's get everyone on the same page.

Daniel J Lewis: 0:40

Yeah, I came from originally the product was my podcast reviews that I started in 2014 with just the focus of tracking ratings and reviews for podcasters. Along the way, I realized I've got a branding problem with the name of the product and I want it to do so much more, but I just couldn't fit that so much more inside that name. My podcast reviews. So I rebranded it to Pod Judgment because it focuses on podcast engagement, therefore pod engagement and ways that podcasters can boost their audience interactions and then use that to grow their podcast. Because I know that a lot of podcasters want a bigger audience or maybe they want to make money, but I think what many podcasters feel is most rewarding when they host their podcast is the connection with their audience. Those relationships, the kind words, the opportunities that come from those relationships. That is really, I think, what's most rewarding about podcasting at all scales. And so Page Engagement offers a suite of tools to help boost that engagement so that you can leverage that for greater growth.

Sam Sethi: 1:47

So give me an example of the types of engagement you've talked about reviews, ratings. What else can you get from publications as a podcaster?

Daniel J Lewis: 1:56

Yeah, when I launched the rebrand into podcast Judgment, the big feature that I was excited to offer is being able to accept feedback from your audience as voicemail so you can share a page. We have multiple speak about shareable pages that are designed for specific users, and each of these pages are smart that they detect the device using the page, so they show certain options based on that device. But what I really want to do is make a feedback page where people could receive written feedback from their audience. That's easy. It's a form. But the more exciting thing is that their audience can press record on that page and send a voice message, and then that gets automatically transcribed, sent to the podcaster. It's downloadable as an MP three file so they can use it in their podcast. That's when it gets really exciting, both for the podcaster and the audience to include literally the audience's voice in their podcast. I know not every podcast is structured in a way that they can actually use that, but it can still be so exciting to have that. And then you can do so many things with that. Whether you use it in your podcast or you use that kind of praise and feedback that you get from your audience to help improve the podcast or help market your podcast better take it to sponsors and show them, Hey, look, this is what my audience is getting from my podcast. Don't you want to be in front of this kind of audience? There are so many things that you can do when you have that engagement, and then there have been other tools that have built into the system, like allowing you to track the relationships that your podcast has with other podcasts through what I call networking, like in Apple Podcasts and Spotify, you see the you may also like Section I track that as it is going out from your podcast as well as what's coming into your podcast. Pod role will be a feature that will be supported very similar there that you'll be able to see. What are all the other podcasts who have your podcast in their pod role tag come back in? And then the newest thing that I'm really excited to launch, I know it's why we're talking is the new charts and rankings feature that has been actually five years in the development.

Sam Sethi: 4:04

Wow, wow, wow. Okay, let's let's before we get into the charts and ranking, let's take a little step back. So in my little mind, I've now got third party data, second party data, first party data. Now, you may never have put it in that terminology, but I'm going to try and then you're going to tell me that's rubbish time and then we're going to just scrap this section. So third party data, right, for me is what hosts, if they know your device, they know your IP address, they know your country and they know the number of downloads. But that's the limit of really what a host can tell the podcaster about their podcast. There's not a lot else they do. Third party data is really where the apps like Spotify, YouTube, Apple and others can tell you what podcast episodes you listen to, how long you listened to it and where you dropped off. That's sort of that immediacy. But I'm thinking second party data, which is that reviews rating voice comments and that feedback loop that you're giving because, you know, the third party data is systematic. That's what the app is doing. The user is not really involved in that, but it is important data for the podcast to know how long people listen to their show, where do they drop off? It's same with advertisers. What you're doing is creating fandom zones of community where I actually actively engage back to the podcast and say, I want to give you my voice comment, I want to give you a view, I want to give you a rating. So it's not passive like the first party data. It's active. It's an active act of the fan. I think the host data is again, passive data because if fan's not involved in that element of the analytics. So yours is really the, the most active passive decision making thought the fan of a show wants to give. So I like voice comments and I've always thought, given that we're in this world of podcasting, which is audio, isn't it crazy that we ask for a written comment back and why can't we have a voice comment back? And I love the idea as well of being able to include those in the show. I used to run a radio station and we used to have people bring to the radio station and that was always a bonus. If you're loving the show ring and tell us what you think. And you'd put them on the air and it'd be amazing because it was that affirmation that somebody is out there listening to what you were saying. And I think voice comments make so much more sense. So now you've gone into this other area of charts. Now you talk in the press release that James covered in Pop News Daily of 34,000. Charles which my brain was like 34,000. Where'd you get that number from? So please explain to me A what the charts are and be how you get the data, and then we'll come to how you got to 34,000.

Daniel J Lewis: 6:48

And I want to give a kind shout out here to charitable for shutting down and giving me the kick that I needed because I have been collecting this data for five years and I haven't been actually building the feature, but I started building it five years ago and just never finished. I got to the point where I was collecting the data and saving it in my database, which got massive over time, but I just wasn't doing anything with it yet. So with charitable sunsetting, I decided this is the time I need to finish this feature because podcasters want this information. I want to be able to provide that to them. And it's what started my rebuilding of the whole product. So I've been collecting it for so long and it's close to 34,000 charts that I've been tracking every hour for the last five years. So for five years I've been tracking these 34,000 charts. And inside of those charts are the rankings. So let's just clarify some terms here. The chart is if you look in Apple Podcasts or Spotify and look at like a top podcast list, I'm calling that a chart. So don't think like graphs and line graphs and bar charts and that kind of thing. I'm trying to avoid using the word chart in that sense that we call that a graph, but here a chart would be a list of podcasts, and it usually is an ordered list of some sort. Even if there aren't necessarily numbers, people still think the thing that's on the top is the top. Whatever is listed first. We kind of look at it as a chart, how these charts are actually populated and how things move in the charts. That's different for all kinds of places. It's even different inside of Apple podcasts. Like if you're looking at a top podcast chart that is affected by more recent subscriptions or followers to a podcast and downloads, whereas something like a search results chart or what's hot or new and noteworthy, those are all handled completely differently. But there's still basically a chart of podcasts. Each podcast, then in that chart has a ranking, and that is simply where it is. It's position in that chart. So I'm tracking these 34,000 charts and each chart having up to 250, in some cases even up to 400 podcasts in a single chart. And then there's the rank for that podcast. Now that number, 34,000 that comes from you look at Apple Podcasts primarily is where it's coming from. The Apple Podcasts is now available in 175 regions. It used to be 155, it's now 175. So right there, that's 175. Every region has a different chart for every genre inside Apple Podcasts, and there are more than 100 genres of podcasts inside Apple Podcasts. So multiply 175 times those 100 plus inside of each genre. There are also additional charts. There is the top podcast chart. That's what most people are familiar with. I have also been tracking the What's Hot and the new and noteworthy in many of these genres. Some of them, some countries and some genres don't have a what's hot or new and noteworthy, but many of them do. And I've been tracking that. This is data that no one else has been tracking as far as I know, for all of these years. So you start multiplying these things and that's how you get to the number around 34,000 charts.

Sam Sethi: 10:25

So you started collecting, you said five years ago, you've now decided to publish that. So now let's go as a podcast step. How do I get to see my ranking? Clearly, I have to sign up to podcast judgment, but once I've signed up to pop judgment, is this available for free or is this available as a paid service? What's the scoop?

Daniel J Lewis: 10:51

Yeah, publication is a paid subscription that provides all of these other features that we've mentioned, and now the charts and rankings feature and the charts and rankings feature. A little side note is the foundation groundwork for an upcoming SEO feature too, that will allow you to track certain SEO terms across all of those countries and genres and such. But this is all included inside what I call the constellation tier. It's the higher end tier of what podcasts and offers that offer currently has all of the features of paid judgment in that tier, and it starts if you want to pay monthly. It's $19 per month per podcast that goes down if you pay yearly and just multiply that times however many podcasts you have. I offer some discounts for non-profit organizations and some agencies, so there is some option there for some flexibility. But when you're inside, then you get to see three different news sections. There is the rankings overview. There's the historical rankings, and then there are the charts. The rankings overview would be where you log in and you can see your number one in Uganda under the such and such genre and the top podcasts, you're number 15 in the United States under this genre. So you get to really quickly see this is where you are and this is how it's changed since 24 hours ago. If you click into any one of those, then it takes you to the historical rankings where you can then see how your podcast has done over time in those charts, and that is at the hourly detail level as well. So you can see certain patterns, but some of the graphs and historical rankings that I look at for some of these podcasts, it's really interesting. I can see when they publish new episodes because they jump up the charts predictably, like every we'll say it's every Monday that they publish a new episode. You can see very quickly they jump back up to their same position in about 5 hours of time, and then they slowly start going down again and then they jump up. It's a cyclical pattern that you can see. One thing that you can learn from that is, wow, the more frequently they publish an episode, the higher they stay in the charts. And it confirms that Apple Podcasts is taking into consideration downloads because just publishing a new episode to a podcast will not get you new followers to the podcast, but it will get you new downloads. So it shows that because the podcast publishes new episodes, it's getting a lot more downloads and therefore that's pushing it higher in the charts simply by publishing more content. And of course, the quality of the content matters a lot for the sustainability, and it's really neat that you can learn from that. What's working well, what helps your podcast stay in those rankings better? And even when it comes to stuff like is it valuable to know you're number one? And in Golia, well, it might not seem like that, but what that can tell you is you've got an audience there and if you can acknowledge that audience, it does two things for you. And this is the same thing too, with like reading ratings and reviews in your podcast or reading feedback or including feedback in your podcast. It does these two things for you, one for that person who sent that feedback, left that rating and review, or is that one personal listening and then Golia It helps them feel like a celebrity. It helps them feel acknowledged that they might think this podcaster that's in the United States, they don't even know I exist. I mean, most Americans don't care about what happens outside of the U.S. and that's probably okay.

Sam Sethi: 14:29

Sorry you said that, not me. Right. Let's be clear in the edit here.

Daniel J Lewis: 14:34

Self-deprecating humor. So they might think that you don't know they exist, but when you acknowledge that they exist, that stands out to them. That right there might turn them into a superfan. It also makes them feel like a celebrity that they want to tell other people.

Sam Sethi: 14:52

Hey.

Daniel J Lewis: 14:53

My feedback was included on this podcast, this celebrity podcast I listen to because you're a celebrity to your audience. Probably they'll think that is amazing and they want to share that with other people. Getting other people to listen to the podcast and thus growing the podcast. That's so that's the one thing is the impact that you have on that person. The other aspect is the impact to your reputation for the rest of your audience. So when the rest of your audience knows you've got a loyal listener in and go, Yeah, well then the rest of your audience thinks, Wow, that's pretty cool. They're pretty famous that they've got listeners all across the world or their number one in such and such company, or they're number one in such and such country. That's really amazing. That helps them to then recognize that that influence that reputation and sometimes, especially when it comes to feedback ratings and reviews, it inspires them to get involved too, because they want to be part of that same fun thing that brought someone else attention. So this is why it's so great to use these things, not simply having them, but actually using them to engage the audience is what grows a podcast.

Sam Sethi: 16:10

So you've aggregated all of this data together, you've got the reviews, the ratings, the comments. Do you see any way that you could then start to offer advice on how they can improve? Is that a metric that you're going to be able to give them as a service? You know, okay, your number three here and I'm a seven there, you've got this rating, blah, blah, blah. And through that aggregation of data, is there any way that you can give a podcaster advice on what they can do better in order to grow their ranking?

Daniel J Lewis: 16:42

Absolutely. And this is where I can come in to do this stuff, especially for developers like me, who had judgment is programmed completely by me and only me. No one else has touched the code except me, and I still describe myself, though, as a scrappy developer. And when it comes to certain like analytics and correlating certain things, conceptual things, and tying things together, I don't know how to process that kind of stuff or build that kind of intelligence. But now that the artificial intelligence is out there or I love what you call it, assistive intelligence is out there, we can start feeding in some of this data and learning what's the best prompt for this and how to get that data back so that it can start guiding on certain things. And I do want to build that in. I have some plans to do that, both from like the feedback that you get to point out, Hey, this is what your audience loves are based on all of the reviews you've received. It sounds like your audience wants more of this content and they want less of this content and then tie that over with some of the analytics of this is how your podcast changes in the charts when you do this, or if you use these search terms. We're seeing that this happens. I really plan to also tie in with some of the few hosting providers that offer an API for their system. Like I know Dan Meisner talks about this with what they've done with bumper bringing in some of these analytics from Blueberry and Open three in some of these places. I want to bring some of that data in as well to connect all of this together. And the whole purpose is not so much I don't want to be the company measuring your reach because there are lots of other places to do that. I want to measure the engagement and help you to improve that engagement so that you can use that to grow a podcast that then you'll see those metrics later down the line as you do those things to engage and grow. And one of the things here that some people are missing from charitable and I've been asked this a lot, especially recently, is charitable smart links from the perspective of knowing if someone visits this page, have they then actually followed the podcast and downloaded an episode? There are different aspects of smart links that I do offer, like device aware pages that are very shareable and such. But the idea of tracking if someone downloads an episode, that's a privacy concern and something I've pointed out in different places is charitable URL was made and run primarily by data and advertising people. I'm a podcaster first. I was a podcaster long before I learned how to program or even started helping other people with their podcasts. I want to respect the privacy of the audience while also serving the podcaster and giving them the data they need that can help them with any of their strategies. You look at like an individual solo indie podcaster. They're probably doing one marketing strategy at a time so they can see more directly. If I do this, do my downloads increase, They don't need the attribution sort of thing, they just need to see. I've done a Did that affect my stats? Some of the bigger companies though, are doing multiple things simultaneously. They're trying different strategies they're sponsoring in different channels, all of these different podcasts that they've got their ads going out on and all of this stuff. So they need to see which one of these channels and strategies is actually working that we're all doing at the same time, they need more of that attribution. And there is a way, I think, to do this in a privacy respecting way that the hosting providers and these analytics providers can get on board with like O.P three and Blueberry and Captivate and Lipson and all of these other places without having to track the audience across the Internet because that's what charitable was basically doing, is tracking the audience across the Internet. I will not do that. That is a line I draw. I am not going to invade the audience's privacy. So an idea for this and developers, you're welcome to reach out to me. Daniel at Pod judgment dot com. If you want to talk about some ideas with this, my idea is that I could provide a little anonymized piece of data from my landing page that pings out to the hosting provider. So let's say someone comes on one of the landing pages I have as follow the podcast dot com so they land on my follow the podcast dot com page and then my system uses some kind of hash that looks at their IP address hashes in some way to a certain algorithm that the industry has agreed on. And then I send that hash over to the hosting provider through their API that they make available. Then they are able to hash an IP address in the same way or in a similar way, but enough that they can compare it to see did the hash I send them also download an episode if yes, then make that available through some API back to me where I can see here are all of the hashes I sent you. These have all confirmed to download. Now let's completely forget these hashes. Now that I've confirmed. Yes, they download in an episode. I don't need to know anything further about them. Let's forget them and I can record it as a conversion for my audience. And then the podcaster has not compromised the privacy of their audience, but the podcaster still gets to know yes people who visited this link through this campaign and whatever did actually convert or did not convert.

Sam Sethi: 22:36

Now, look, you've got a long track record in the industry. Why did Spotify buy all of the analytics companies when they did? And then why have Spotify decided to close them all down?

Daniel J Lewis: 22:49

Money really all comes down to money. I think Spotify wanted to be able to track the audiences. They wanted this information and I talk about this kind of tracking as a dirty thing. I know that advertisers don't see it as a dirty thing. They see it as we need to know what's working, we need to see what's converting so we can put more money in the right places. We need to make sure that we're actually making the sales that we need in the right places. So I get that. And I think Spotify then looking at charitable and some of these other companies, they wanted access to the data. I wanted access to the tech, so they wanted access to this to be able to track these people across the Internet, basically to be able to build those profiles. And when you have profiles on people, then you can serve the right ads. To them, it becomes more valuable. There is value in big data. I get it. I don't like it, but I understand the value that is there. I just wish we didn't value that. Why are they shutting some of these things down? Well, I think that comes down to the cost of these things. Like I'm really surprised that Spotify has not yet shut down completely what we used to call anchor, because I think they thought when they bought anchor, they thought, Wow, here's this great tool that has launched millions of podcasts and maybe they never knew until after they acquired Anchor that Well, most of those podcasts are what I call pod flashes. They're dead on arrival. They're a flash in the pan. They've got one episode and then they're abandoned. And Spotify still has that even with Spotify for podcasters. Now Spotify for creators where they've made it so easy, which is a great thing, they've made it so easy that people can accidentally launch a podcast. And many of these things are automatically going into Spotify instead of automatically going into Apple Podcasts. But many of these things being abandoned, I think, end up not realistically costing Spotify much money, but I think they are shutting down certain things that they're just realizing. The people using this product that aren't our direct customers aren't really helping us. They're not helping us collect this big data. They're not building what is most profitable for us. They have to think about their bottom line. And I think they see that a service like charitable, while the technology is obviously valuable to them, that's why they're rolling it into megaphone. It seems like it's not valuable to them to offer it to the industry as a whole. And my conclusion there is, I think Spotify doesn't really care about the podcasting industry. They care about what happens inside the Spotify app. And we've seen behavior fairly consistent with that of they've developed all these proprietary things that they could have instead supported the open standards that we have in podcasting and RSS instead of doing proprietary things. But they're concerned about making a great experience on Spotify in their closed walled garden system. And I think that's what's happening with their acquisitions and what they're shutting down. What do you think about it, though?

Sam Sethi: 26:02

I get why the original charter bill was built in the other analyst devices. I think one of the things I had heard was that they actually bought them so that they could find out which podcast to go and buy when they were going through their exclusives, period. They wanted to go and find out which ones they should go and get based on the rankings. The Spotify for creators. I think it may have been a dodo and now with the video upload into it, I think they're beginning to see a way of turning it around. And I know that there's a company in the UK called Flight Cast that has now been given the first API access to publish as a host directly into Spotify for creators with audio and video. So it won't be a local upload, it will be a host driven upload of video as well. So I think you're going to see some changes there. Hello, I'm with you. And you know that generally I'm on the open advocacy of podcasting Twitter, but I also can see from a corporate point of view that there was no way that Spotify could have got ahead of the curve while waiting for the community to come up with the tags and the standards. And I think as a listed company with a massive user base and a quarterly return requirement, I don't think you can realistically wait for someone to improve the location tag, someone to make sure that the boost or the comments work. I don't think that's feasible. That would be literally the tail wagging the dog in the case of the podcasting to to a community determining what features and functions Spotify would put in. So as much as I would love them to embrace the open standards, I don't think they could have done that because the pace of change that they've had to implement would not have met with the pace of change that we think in the podcasting community. So I'm not giving them a pass, but I'm also understanding why, as a business they wouldn't go down the road and let you and I and other people determine their strategy. I think the one company that could and should is Apple. They've cracked open the door slightly with a couple of podcasting, 2.0 tags, and that's the company I'd love to see in 2025. You know, really take the metal five, six, seven, eight, ten new tags in place and then become the champion of the open community against the closed communities of YouTube and Spotify and again, talking about data, you know, hosts who have supported Apple with delegated delivery are getting no value back from Apple. And I think Apple not having an advertising platform has really no need for that first party data rather than smart internal metrics. They should and could give that first party data back to the hosts who've supported them through delegated delivery, and then the host would have improved analytics. I think. So I think Apple should and could do something. I just feel Apple's gone missing in action. I don't know what they're doing. As I joke with James, I'm looking forward to that. One new feature will get in 2025 because we only get one feature a year. They just don't seem to do any more than that.

Daniel J Lewis: 29:16

Apple moves very slowly and I think that like some of these companies, whether it's Spotify or Apple, as they want to build some of these features into their platforms, they probably feel, hey, it's faster for us and better for us to just build this thing ourselves instead of trying to participate in the community and herd these cats together to be able to come to an industry standard on a particular feature. But the difference between Apple and Spotify here is that Apple does have team members watching the podcasting 2.0 developments and occasionally just dropping in a little nugget. You know what? If maybe would you consider possibly doing something like this Apple is doing that Spotify is not.

Sam Sethi: 30:03

And that's why I think Apple, instead of being what I call the man in black, you know, if you ever meet someone from Apple, you have to pretend you've never met them and certainly can never talk about what you said to me. I genuinely believe that they should just come out of their cocoon, really embrace it, because they would be the big enough player who would actually then drive forward that for mass adoption. We saw that with the transcript tag. But when I met one of the Apple people in L.A. recently and I asked them, why don't they adopt the person tag and chapters? And they were like, No, we don't need to, thanks. And that was it. And I went, Oh, so anyway, let's forget about them. Let's go back to you. So what's the future hold for pod engagement? What's next then? You've done the charts, you've done the comments, you're doing some of the SEO bit of AI. Is that the roadmap for 25?

Daniel J Lewis: 30:54

Daniel Well, the CEO thing I think is coming next because being able to track a chart and historical rankings, that is the foundation I need to then open it up so podcasters can track their own terms and then see what else is ranking in the search terms so they can discover networking opportunities and such. And there's so much about this though, that since judgment is developed by me, a podcaster first, and I'm helping other podcasters, I'm listening to other podcasters, I sympathize and empathize with other podcasters. So a lot of what I do is really driven by what are podcasters actually meeting like. That's why I fast paced this chart development thing. As I realized with charitable going away, podcasters are going to need this as another option. So I have to build this for them quickly so that they can get those needs met. And I've served several charitable refugees at this point and they're the fun little things I'm often looking for, like what are the things that I can make that are so fun for podcasters that they will love? Like one of those things is that third page. I didn't get to finish talking about earlier. I have a chart page now that doesn't sound all that exciting. You can view the charts in multiple ways, but what is exciting about it is you can watch the charts change in real time where you could park your browser on this page inside your account. And if the chart changes, you'll see a podcast shift over and things will move around and shift. I've actually thought of maybe opening up a page like that to the general public. I just have to think about the bandwidth and server costs of something like that. But it could basically be the new podcasting cocaine to just sit there and.

Sam Sethi: 32:42

Chance that Daniel and then someone else pays for. You'll find.

Daniel J Lewis: 32:45

Oh, good idea. It's sponsored by true fans. It's the kinds of things like that that I'm looking for. You know, it goes back so much to what we've seen Apple do over the years and many other great innovators in history. It was Ford who said, if I ask people what they wanted, they would have asked for a faster horse. Correct. And you think about like when Apple came out with the iPhone, people didn't know they wanted a smartphone.

Sam Sethi: 33:16

Oh, I remember everyone on CrackBerry at the time was like, Oh, there's no keyboard on it. It's only just go screen, keep it all ever work.

Daniel J Lewis: 33:25

Yeah, exactly. And now here we are in a world where we feel like how a physical keyboard on the phone, that would be torture. So I'm looking for those innovations and I'm that type that I was so inspired by the Isaacson book about Steve Jobs, because I like to find something that's not working very well and innovate it. That's why your t shirt in the Podcasting 2.0 community is we've built this in true fans. My t shirt is either I suggested this years ago or Hey, what if we make it do this instead?

Sam Sethi: 34:02

Indeed, we should wear those at the next event we attend. That will be funny. Look, Daniel, thank you so much. If I want to join podcast again, where would I go?

Daniel J Lewis: 34:13

Go to pod engagement dot com. Just think podcast engagement pod judgment dot com.

Sam Sethi: 34:19

And can I get you to come to pod camp? Will you and Dave Jackson find that couple of pennies from behind the sofa and get on a flight and come and do podcast with me. Oh I would.

Daniel J Lewis: 34:31

Absolutely love to because a funny thing I did a pod camp like the original structure of pod camp. I did Pod Camp Cincinnati many years ago. I put on this conference, had some volunteers. It was a lot of work to put on this conference, but a lot of people who came said, Best pod camp ever. And I never did another one because I didn't want to try and top that. But I love being in that conference atmosphere. I am an introvert, so I get energy from both sides of the aisle in that way. And I love just being with podcasters and I love traveling too. So I'm looking at if it's possible to make it there. I would love to be there and support what you're doing and it's exciting to see what you're doing with Pod Camp 2.0.

Sam Sethi: 35:15

Yeah. Well, the idea came from you and Dave saying, Thank you. I just saw a problem with the idea that was whole. And also just, just plug it. Go on, watch your podcast that you guys do.

Daniel J Lewis: 35:26

Yeah, I do two different podcasts. I do The Audacity two podcast, which is my own solo podcast about podcasting, where I get pretty in-depth with a lot of things. It's currently on hiatus because I'm a full time dad to in addition to building Pod judgment, and then Dave Jackson and I do a podcast together, The Future of podcasting, where we hypothesize about a lot of things, talk through a lot of things, a lot of podcasting, 2.0 stuff, but it's also sometimes just the concepts of things or challenges that we see coming up in the industry and really talking about where is this industry going and what are some concerns, what are some things to get excited about? How can we use this?

Sam Sethi: 36:04

Very cool. I love listen to it. As you know, I'm a big fan of the show. I never get a shout out. I always listen. So no worries at all. Thank you so much. Good luck with publication. Catch you in tonight.

Daniel J Lewis: 36:16

Thank you, Sam.