Sam Sethi: 0:12

Hello and a welcome back to Port News Weekly. I'm really excited, actually, because I've got a guest on who we've had on the show before. Her name's Jessica Cordova. Cramer. Jason is the CEO of Lehman Out and the co-founder. Hello, how are you?

Jessica Cordova-Kramer: 0:26

Hi, Sam. I'm doing well. How are you?

Sam Sethi: 0:28

I'm doing very well, thank you very much. Now, I wanted to get you on much earlier in the year, but I'm glad I haven't, actually, I'll be honest, because so much has happened for Lehman all the for 2024. But the original idea to get you on was when Meghan Markle was signed by you guys and then you had some big hits straight after that with David Duchovny. And of course, you had an amazing year with Julie Louis Dreyfus. And again, it's been growing and growing. I won't go through every one of your acquisitions will be here till Christmas otherwise. So let's start off with 2020 for the beginning, Yeah. Meghan Markle And some of the acquisitions, what was in the thinking there?

Jessica Cordova-Kramer: 1:06

Great question and I cannot believe how many things have happened this year, not just for us but for the industry as a whole. So happy to take you through it. And I will say it's so fun for folks to look from the outside in at Lemonade as growth, but we are only posting about the fun stuff we never post about the deep long strategy sessions that we're doing and stuff that doesn't go quite right. So I always like to couch our success in it is hard work. What we do, what our producers do, what our marketers do, what our talent does, and everything you get to read about and see about is all the good stuff, of course. So happy to talk about challenges too, and we're all having them and I think it's helpful for other CEOs and folks at media companies to know for every nice post we're doing, there's ten things we're doing in the background to problem solve and build this beautiful thing with our team. But yeah, it's been a wild year. Sam. We've been working with Meghan on bringing her show archetypes to the masses, and it had a phenomenal launch. It feels like 16 years ago now. We brought that show out to Apple listeners and out beyond Spotify listeners, and the reception has been warm and wonderful and we had a great time working with Meghan on that and her team and Spotify. It was a dream come true as well. So it was really a lovely experience across the board and our creative team, our marketing team is deep in the weeds with the Duchess now and we'll share more in the New year about how that's going. But it's been a really wonderful experience. She's brilliant and hard working and the first person to be on every single call she is. She's really just fabulous. And yeah, we've been rocking and rolling all year long. Similar timeline. We brought podcasts to the network and Pen and Nova and Sophie have been phenomenal to work with. The show has been rising, rising and just getting such incredible talent on it. And it's a darling of brands and agencies as well. And of course, David, the company's series came out in May and we had planned only 20 episodes with David, and he just texted me yesterday and it was like we just did 31 because it's just been going incredibly well. Alec Baldwin just came on and they had a fabulous that's been reported everywhere. And David is an intellectual and a brilliant interviewer and has been really growing into his own. And the show is a fantastic place to talk with remarkable people about the times in their lives where things haven't gone as planned and how that's shaped them. Most recently, we announced that happier would be coming to eliminate it. So Gretchen and her team, plus two other shows, happier in Hollywood and Side Hustle School are all joining the network in the New Year. And we've just announced that Talk Easy with Sam Fargo, so we'll be coming over as well. So that's thrilling. I can't wait for people to hear about that. But we're working with Melissa McCarthy, Lupita Nyong'o, Lena Ways we Ellie Kemper, All of this happen this year and we just are grateful for folks who trust us with their brand and their message and their desire to use podcasting to make life success.

Sam Sethi: 4:10

Now, often with such a large slate, you must look at it and go, That's going to be one of our stars. Once there, one in there that you went, Oh, that's really surprised me. I thought that would be mid-table in our slate, but one that you thought, Well, that'll do well, but that won't be a superstar hit. And then it suddenly went. Is there anything that surprised you out of it all? Let me cheat and give you three. One is an original, which is David series, which of course we knew it was going to be great. We got the pitch. Failure University with David, two company. We had already filled up our entire slate for 2024, got the pitch from CAA and I remember getting that thing and being like, God damn it, because I was like, We're going to have to do the show. Then we met with David and it was such a cosmic meeting. We had the same sort of creative force and when I'm going out is picking shows and when talent is picking women on it, there's a synergy there. When it works, we work with talent who have a real message. They have a real Y behind their podcast. So if you look across our slate, you'll see wildly different types of shows and people and tremendous amount of diversity and all of it. But everyone's got a real central why and it fits within the make up less brand. And David Show just was a home run and he had never interviewed before. So we also weren't exactly sure how he was going to want to be prepped and how he'd want to work with us. But it has been a dream come true. And what's great about that show is it's created this beautiful, safe space for incredible people to talk about their lives with him. He's built a tremendous amount of trust with his audience. We have Gillian Anderson on a few weeks ago and shortly after the election where and I think everyone was, regardless of their politics, just looking for escape. Then we basically broke the Internet with that episode. And then we just had Alec Baldwin on yesterday. So I think that show has been a dream come true from behind the scenes all the way to storming People magazine and just being a topic of conversation for folks and being a beautiful podcast. It's won awards already. It's been thrilling. The other two quickly mentioned we brought on a show called Pack One Bag that we did not make, and it's an ad sales and distribution deal for us, and it's a beautiful series about one family's escape from fascism in Italy right before the breakout of World War Two. It's been taking every award that it has been entered for, and my guess is it'll be a TV show at some point. It's phenomenal. David Modigliani made that show and we were just so lucky to get to work with them. And then we haven't done a lot of fiction in the past, but we got this pitch. It was another goddammit moment, got this pitch from Melissa McCarthy and their husband, Ben Falcone. For Hilda, the bar back. And we were like, We're not going to do fiction. But then we were like, Oh, we're going to do this fiction. And that show it was producer Top 25. I think it's breaking the mold. On what fiction can be, and we love to be a part of it. So those are three had mentioned. different, but as you said, they have a central Y theme to them Now with what you're doing and want to try and get behind the curtain a little bit. You talk about the swamp moment. On the surface, it's all lovely, but underneath your legs are kicking like mad. Now when they're kicking like mad underneath, you're having to do a lot of planning and strategy. How do you choose a show? Because not every show that comes to you gets accepted, right? Not every show that pitches up goes, Yeah, we're going to do that show. So what do you set as an expectation in terms of cost of show and return?

Jessica Cordova-Kramer: 7:39

Great question. Yeah, we are constantly recalibrate eating. A lot of us at the company have backgrounds in business or education, and so we love a rubric and we love a widget and we love an algorithm and we also love we're artists, so we love to pepper all of the science with vibes and spirit and instincts and creative juices. The couple of things about lemons that I think are different from other places I've worked before. One, it's incredibly consensus driven, it's very flat structured, and so there's a lot of folks making every single decision. It's not me or staff or me. I'm staff in a vacuum being like this show, but not that show. We like this person, but not that person. As a company, we're getting about 50 or 60 pitches a week and we have really great processes for looking at each and every one of them. If you're listening to this and you've pitched us and you haven't heard back from us in a few weeks right into Hear Lemon out of Medium.com because I want to hear about it. But we strive to at least be customer service oriented with folks who are sending us pitches regardless of where they're coming from, big Hollywood agency or regular person sending us their personal story. We try to get back to everyone and we look at everything as a team. And then when we are seriously considering something, when it gets to that level, we're looking at everything from Does it fit with brand? Does it make like success in some way? It can be comedy. We have three Tim on the network, Scott Aukerman, Lauren Lapkus, Paul Tompkins chatting about stuff and they produce that show and it makes lifestyle class for its listeners. It's got a big sticky audience and it's a beautiful series in so many ways, but it's comedy at its core. And then we've got shows like Our True Crime Upside Down, Slate, Blind Alley, deeply reported narrative and about domestic violence and the criminal justice system for people of color in the United States, women of color in particular. And we've got everything in between. So everything makes life suck less in some ways. So we have that sort of gut check around what the content is, and then we're going to go down the rabbit hole. On if it's a new show Is this a potential to break through? Is the host really into it? I talked about the passion that David and Julia and Stephanie with last day and so many of our originals have, and we are looking for that real y from the talent. And then we're going to go through the same types of on audience potential, potential, whether the PNL can be positive over a reasonable period of time. And then we make our best guess and go, we're usually not the top bidder for any talent because we're a small company and we are independent. We are self-managed, our money comes in, it goes right back out to pay our staff and their talent and very little overhead. It's a pretty simple company and we have to manage our finances in a way that makes sense. So when talent or choosing women out there, choosing us because they know we're going to do something different for them. So always looking to make those matches as best we can and do right by everyone on the team internally and anyone who comes and brings us their heart and soul.

Sam Sethi: 10:44

Now look, this American Life put out a note saying that they're going to struggle with ad revenue. They're seeing a massive drop off in the amount of ad revenue they're getting. just with your CEO hat on, not just purely lemonade, but just across the industry maybe as well. Is this something that you are seeing and does that mean you're going to lean into subscriptions or are you going to look at other forms of revenue to monetize? Or conversely, are you seeing ad revenue shoot through the roof? And it's just this American Life is having a bad time. Where where is it with you? well, a couple of things for us that differentiate us from more traditional media. One is we have to be nimble. We have to assume the worst every week. We have to plan for an environment that is ever changing. Stephanie and I launched this company in September 20, 19, months before a pandemic, and we bootstrapped, we put our own money in, and that's how we got the company off the ground. We got a small advance from our sales support network at the time. Was would won and hired a tiny team and then COVID hit. And then it was election after a wild election in the middle of a pandemic and global wars, strife, protests, you name it. We have been running this company in the wildest of times and there has not been a precedented day since we started it and let alone the industry. Stuff from iOS 17 to media consolidation to the impact of the world news on the advertising industry, which we know are hand in hand. So we actually have staff meeting leaders talking about this with our team. We constantly have to be in a conservative environment as business leaders and as the people who are responsible for our staff and our talent. And so I think we go into 2025 with the same level of careful planning as we went into 24, 23, 22, 21 and probably 19 as well. It's hard to remember we brought sales in-house in 2021, so we've had our own sales team which enables us to monetize our of originals without sharing revenue with the sales partner and it enables us to bring sales and distribution partnerships onto the network. And we have wildly different results than the industry as a whole. And we have had them consistently, even as we've grown upwards of 50 to 200% audience year over year. Our CPMs are in the high thirties and low forties, or Phil Reed is around 80% consistently year over year and we are able to do that because we are working really closely with talent and producers to make those ads great and work really hand in hand and in a white glove way with agencies, with brands, and even when things are going wrong, which they inevitably do, approaching the work with a high level of customer service, which we're able to scale over time. all to say it's just dramatically different than, I think what traditional media and particularly public media is able to do on the sales and partnerships side. And we're hopeful about 2025, but we're planning for a more conservative year just in case some of the feelings are true. Our subscription business is growing. We've had a wonderful partnership with Apple Premium just launching supporting Cast now, so we're excited about that and our revenue has grown around 40 to 70% year over year since we've started, and we're assuming a similar level of growth next year. But we're still not a big company. We don't have a ton of cash like a big, huge media company that's publicly traded might have and this year will be turning a profit. And that's exciting and helping kind of get to be even more independent. And all of those things. We did a raise that was like three years ago now, and we've been operating on our own steam for these past few years. congratulations on reaching towards profitability. That is a hat tip we're getting there. Well, for any entrepreneur who gets into that, well done. So, yeah, one of the things that Tom Webster put out was the number of ads that he saw as an average within a podcast was about three. And we know that radio has got about six or seven. Do you see that you will find that more podcasts get out stuffed or do you think that customers will push back on that so hard that whether you want to or not, you're not going to revenue generate through that mechanism?

Jessica Cordova-Kramer: 15:13

You know, it really depends on the show. So if you have a creator lens on the sponsorship, which we do at Lemonade, and I can't speak for the rest of the industry to some extent, I'm just laser focused on what we're doing. We see the ads as content. Our team does a lot of the work with the brands to rewrite the scripts and have them sound fun. And who doesn't want to hear David Duchovny, Julia Louis-Dreyfus, Scott Aukerman and Lupita Nyong'o talking about whatever? I'll listen to a phone book if it's interesting enough. So we think about the ads as content for us. We don't stuff our shows, but we also have to make the shows make sense. If people want to have art, it needs to be funded and this is our way of funding it. We're not shy about it. I don't think we should be shy about it. I don't think we should hide behind the fact that our hosts are reading ads, and those ads are what fuel the team's salary, my salary, the ability for talent to spend their time making podcasts and if they're great, people won't skip them. Brands will be happy. They'll come back. Our retention is super high for brands and agencies, and if something isn't working like swap it out, But we don't do a ton of programmatic, which is where I think you see a lot of the stuffing. It's easy to stuff, hard to put ten ads in a podcast if it's all just read and thoughtful and has a really clear call to action. So that is not to say the programmatic ads are bad, but I think that's where you get a little bit of the strain. You're listening to a show and then all of a sudden it's something else and it's back to the show. It doesn't sound like that when we're making ads, it sounds a little more like it's part of the content.

Sam Sethi: 16:45

Okay, let's cover a couple of other topics then, where there's a video set within Lima. Now a big 24 question, right? It's it's the YouTube answer. It's the Spotify about to do it aren't so where do you guys it does it add value to the podcast does it add a considerable cost I'm assuming to the podcast production to where do you sit? is a nuanced answer for me. So since I got into podcasting in 2017 with Crooked Media making a series called Pod Save the People with Dre, I was the founding producer on that series and I made it for three years and ever since 2017, and I wasn't in podcasting before that, so it could have been happening in 2016. It was like the mantra was the future of podcasting is video and I have always been skeptical of being completely true. And then I think most recently the mantra has become is video eating, podcasting. I think video is critical. So there's different things that we use video for now at Limitada, we have a handful of shows that have a vibrant YouTube channel and we're able to dramatically increase revenue on those shows. If there's an existing YouTube audience and video production that happens. Podcast is a great example. Jose Andre This is a great example. Meghan Trainor Great example. We also use video for Discovery and for social media, and we've been doing that from the very start. So that could be Zoom video, that could be still photographs, that could be in-person video, a number of different things that we're doing that help with discovery on TikTok, on Instagram and on YouTube and in other places. And then there's the hybrid type of video that people are doing that I think can be great. And then there's the more expensive call her Daddy or Joe Rogan type video. That also can be great, but you've got to have the existing Channel four. It's got to make sense. And then there's the consumer side. How are people ingesting podcasts and which ones are they ingesting? Audio only versus video. And so as with anything, we are taking a painstakingly thoughtful approach on a show by show basis to figure out, does this make sense? Does it make sense to weave in video sometimes all the time or never on the show? What kind of video are we talking about? Home kits where people can record themselves with a guest together in a nice place? Or are we talking about a real studio or are we talking about some of the incredible technology that's popped up that is really just enabling our audio producers to have a video capability on top of it and not create two WORKSTREAMS So for example, Riverside. So it's a boring answer because it's nuance and not like, yep, everything's switching to video tomorrow. We also have the most incredible producers and engineers at Lemmon Auto. We adore them. Folks have been with us since the company started. Folks who have come in who are newer and as a whole, we're thinking as a group like we've got to really make sure that everyone's got the skills to continue their work in evolution of podcasting, which probably does involve us knowing how to use as an organization, Riverside and the like more adeptly. But it's also not race to the We've got to have everything on YouTube, everything on Spotify, everything with baked in ads. And I'm waiting and this is a strong plea to the industry for the moment where we can do one stop publication and die via ad insertion, both in video and in audio, our RSS feeds so that we're not doubling our work, doubling our costs as creators. word with the industry for you.

Jessica Cordova-Kramer: 20:20

Yeah, the short answer, it depends.

Sam Sethi: 20:23

Okay. Now, the other touchy subject that everyone predicts is going to be within our horizon of 2025 is A.I., and some call it artificial intelligence. I call it assisted intelligence. We've seen it used in pre-production and in post-production. We've seen it used, I think, well, in some cases with Notebook Alarm, the Spotify Review of the Year, everyone got a notebook album review, too. Where does A.I. fit into Leonardo, if it does at all? the camp of artificial intelligence or assisted atonement that's just helping our creatives do their jobs more quickly and easily. So if the transcript technology is enhanced or our sales team has booster or other products that automatically scan contracts and put stuff in and just makes their lives easier, great. But for us, we are creatives, we are a creative company for artists and we care deeply about the authenticity of that work. And so you're never going to see us race to air ads or that sort of thing. We want our staff and our talents lives to be easier. And if I can help with the products they're already using, great. But we're being really cautious on the sort of creative bleed side of things. When you listen to a woman on a podcast, there's nothing fishy happening and we want to keep that pure. Yeah, I tend to think as we get more A.I. out there, I think people will want more human generated content, more real authentic content from people to people, because we can always get fast facts if we really want it. If that's what you need, I'm sure that you can get Chachi ABC to summarize anything for you if that's the sum of what you're looking for. And I don't think that's what podcasting is about. But anyway, that's just me now. Internationalization. Where does Liman artists sit with internationalization? You know, the slate that you reeled off at the beginning was very American. And I'm like thinking, okay, so maybe there's going to be an expansion. Is that something in the 2025 horizon? spending some time in 2025 thinking about it for sure. We have a sizable international audience, depends on the show, but anywhere from 10 to 15% of the audiences listening abroad, largely places like UK, Australia, some parts of Southern Europe and then Asia. I think as an industry have two things that we want to think about. Live world sucks everywhere in many ways, so if we want to make success here, a natural extension would be to do the same in other places. But we are an American company and we have a unique perspective around what life is like here. And so if we were to do anything global, we'd want to do it in partnership with local context and producers and creators and talent to know what the world is like where they live. I don't purport to think that here in Minneapolis, our troubles are the same as they might be in India or Italy or what have you. And the other thing that needs to happen outside of the UK in particular is priming the ad sales market so that we can create the content that we want to create in other places that it's supported with and by brands and by technology and all of that. And I don't think we're quite there yet. So I'd like to spend a little bit of 20, 25, not just in a box and limited order, but thinking with our peers about this question how do we take our work and make it make sense in other places? And there's lots of incredible producers as creators, talent ad sales networks popping up everywhere. And so I think it's a lot of partnership and not just pretending like whatever you do here will work somewhere else. you do occasionally cast your eye across other production companies and you go, Oh, that's interesting what they've done over there. We all do that. Is there a podcast that came out in 2024 from another production company that you thought, I really wish we had that one. Which one would that be? I would have said normal gossip. The team was literally obsessed and this year loved hysterical and they won Apple Show of the year, which we won last year. Shout out Julia, Shout out Wiser than My Team Shout out marketing team, which I loved. I don't know that we would have made that show, but I loved it. And Hannah's Brown, who scored a bunch of our stuff, I think scored that show. There's a couple of shows on Sony Slate that I love. Jesse Tyler Ferguson series. Jonathan MENSAH series. You surprise me on that one. So I'm going to. No, no, it's Steve. It's good. I have like scan the charts and see what else I might be missing. And lastly, a prediction for 25. What do you see for the whole industry? Where do you think we're all going? You've got your finger pretty much on the pulse of it. Where would we all expect to be in 25? think that 25 is going to bring a lot of conversation around how to make one plus one equals three in the industry. So together to solve some problems, problems like scale, problems like to make incredible content together. So more co-productions than we've seen this year. I actually was surprised by how few there were, and I think there's a ton of great content that's not getting made right now because people are being also included conservative about what to spend, where and why. And I think this is happening in TV and film as well. So I think podcasting is just part of the whole media industry now. There's incredible creators, wild stories that need to be told and I hope we spend 20, 25 figuring out how to get those stories told. I don't think people will stop listening audio only. So my prediction is that we will carefully think about how video will fit in, and I'm seeing people reacting positively to Spotify as opportunities for creatives to post more video. But also the conversations I'm having are around, well, let's do it where it makes sense. We're not just going to spend the money to spend the money, it's got to have a very clear ROI and the industry has grown up a ton in the past decade and so people are thinking like that from the get go. And that's really important. And I think back to your question on the video front, the listening habits of so many women are not video consumption. We are listening to podcasts when we're picking up our kids, when we're getting the minutes to exercise every day, when we're vacuuming in the background, when we're doing quiet work. And we want to keep making audio for folks who are listening that way. And we also want to lean into video. So I think you're going to hear from more companies or you're just going to see the fruits of people being thoughtful about how video can positively the bottom line and find more audience, but also not rushing to throw billions of dollars at it. Those would be my main predictions. Okay, so I'm talking about next year is going to be about content, collaboration, communication and commerce. So with what you're doing as well, you are slightly diversifying out of podcasting into books, which was a different area that I was curious, why did you move into books? question. So background before podcasting, I was in nonprofit management. Before that I was in M&A lawyer when stuff and I founded the company. Having property as part of our value was a big part of the drive. And when we founded the company, we also did this exercise recommended by Simon Sinek in his very popular TED Talk from the early 2000, where you explore what the why is behind what you're doing and why at the time it's morphed into Make Life Suck less. But originally it was to make the heart a little easier. And our first How was podcast to get you out of bed in the morning? And we have built that in the last five years. We formed this company to save lives. We did not form this company because we were like, Let's be media moguls. That was never the plan and I'm still not the plan. And then the outer ring after the original, how was always additional forms of intellectual property? Not everyone listens to podcasts, certainly not when we launched the company in 2019. More do now, but we knew if we wanted to do our work at scale, we'd have to translate it into different forms of intellectual property. So some of our series are being considered for TV and film, which is incredible. And the partnerships that we launched earlier this year with Simon and Schuster is about taking the work that we built in our podcasts and translating them into ebook form for podcasts where it makes sense and working with Simon and Schuster to look across their incredible catalog, to think about what books might be great podcasts, what authors might have great shows. David's writing fail better, which is going to be incredible. It's just phenomenal to think about both his now 31 episodes and what he's learning about failure from the podcast, as well as the reflections that he records for Apple Premium, which are a lot of his thoughts about what he is learning as he goes. And, you know, David's an intellectual, so and an author, and it makes a ton of sense to be able to create a capstone from the first two seasons or however many we end up having before the book comes out in 2026. And then it's a core to our mission. I don't know if you know how the company was founded, but Stephanie and I both met because we lost our little brothers to accidental heroin overdoses two years apart. I heard her on a podcast. I thought I was never going to come out of this grief period after my brother died, and she was the first person to make me laugh. And it was because she was making jokes about heroin overdose. She was funny as heck. I was like, Podcasts could save lives. Let me stop this woman and make her make a company with me that helps use podcasts to save lives. And we did it. That's just the most pithy version of a very long story. But now Stephanie's writing. Our first show was called Last Day, and it was a deep dive into the question of whether we could have saved our brothers if we had known different things. It was a real quest for us. It was wildly popular and much needed when it came out. Steph hosts It turned out I had Doctor Brilliant voice actress, and it's just completed its fourth season and now Steph is writing that book. What did we learn in the course of making that first season around the opioid crisis and our brothers? We were part of a big wave of harm reduction ists with that show and opioid deaths are still huge, but they are way less than they were five years ago. And so she is writing a nice capstone about what we learned from that show. So the books pieces, you know, a lot of people who listen to podcasts read books, and we want to reach people and we want to expand our mission and our work and the mission and work of the talent that we think shares our ideals. sorry for your loss. I wouldn't know, and it's not something I was aware of. So my thoughts are with you. Yeah, I think that reaching out extends to books. But I was interested that you talked about taking some of the talent from the book community back, but you didn't call it an audio book. You call it a podcast. Was that very specifically not to call it an audio book, or was that just something you just generically just term?

Jessica Cordova-Kramer: 31:33

Yeah, we're not making audio books. Simon and Schuster makes audio books, so if they put out a brand new memoir from I think Alec Baldwin has one coming out or it's out, he's just top of mind because he was just like David Show. If his memoir comes out and he records the audiobook, that's the Simon and Schuster audiobook. So we are talking about true podcasts that might come out or around. Alec Baldwin We are not currently working with him, just using an example. They have Simon and Schuster audiobooks and we don't have any hand in producing audiobooks. We do have a podcast with Simon and Schuster called Your Next Listen, which is fantastic, and just launched last month and takes snippets of their actual audiobooks and allows our podcast listeners to hear chapters of them so they can decide whether they want to go and buy the audiobooks. But audiobooks are not part of our work with them, unless of course, our podcasts, like David's book Feel Better, gets recorded as an audiobook and it will

Sam Sethi: 32:30

Now, one last thing you talked about working with Apple on subscription plans, and I'm sure that there'll be other ones you talked about as well supporting cast. Would you ever move into like Wondery have with Wondery plus creating your own community network? community all the time, creating content and community is a big part of the next phase of our work. We got through our five year plan. We've built an extremely large audience. I think we're fourth biggest network on Triton's table and about the 18th or 19th, depending on the month on track. And that was a big part of our drive for the first five years. And now we have that big audience. They're everywhere and we want to convene them in different ways. So for sure, thinking about I don't know if it's necessarily an app, but thinking about everything from live events to technological solutions for gathering our folks in a variety of ways so they could interact with each other around the issues and the shows that they care about, interact with talent, interact with staff. That is definitely part of the dream. Jess, I'm going to leave it there because it's been an amazing conversation and thank you so.

Jessica Cordova-Kramer: 33:38

Much and thanks for being patient with us through the year.

Sam Sethi: 33:41

I know it was well worth it. Everything good comes to it's time. So thank you very much. Thanks, Jess.

Jessica Cordova-Kramer: 33:46

Thanks, Sam.